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How to Create a Podcast that Drives Sales

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Mark Fidelman  00:16

Hello, everyone, welcome to the digital brand builder podcast.

Mark Fidelman  00:21

joining me is Roger Nair. And we’re going to talk about how to use podcasts like this one, to drive sales to drive revenue branding, whatever your purposes, we’re gonna talk to Roger about how you use a podcast to do that. So I’m super excited. I’m hoping to learn something I’m sure I’m gonna learn something. But before we jump in, I want to turn it over to Roger real quick to give us a little bit of background about himself. Hey,

Roger Nairn 00:53

Mark, thanks so much for having me on the show. So my name is Roger Nan, I’m the CEO of jar audio. jar audio is a podcast production agency. We work exclusively though, with brands so we help brands get into the podcast world and create their own original podcast. So we help grow revenue and impact through ROI driven podcasts that make meaningful connections with the brand’s listeners.

Mark Fidelman  01:17

Okay, who cares about podcasts? Why is this important to brands, you know, what

Roger Nairn 01:21

brands, brands care about engagement with their audiences and and podcasts are fast becoming, you know, one of the best ways to to engage with audiences, obviously, you know, the medium itself has been around for about between five 810 years. A little bit longer than that. But But, you know, as far as the popularity goes, what we’re finding and what brands are finding is that podcast, audiences themselves are quite unique. They’re expanding and growing, but a podcast audience is highly educated, a little bit more affluent, really interested in educating themselves digging deep into subject matters. So if you have a brand can find the sweet spot and create a really fantastic value driven podcast, then they’re able to engage with their audience for a lot longer. And, and, you know, you know, you being a marketer, me, me coming from a marketing background, you know, brands brands very rarely have have a problem, you know, getting an audience’s attention, you know, through programmatic and able to target through, you know, all sorts of the new amazing digital tools we have today. That’s never really been the problem, you know, the problem is keeping that audience’s attention and, and what we’re finding is that if a brand can produce a great podcast, then they can actually hold their audience in the funnel longer. And and really, what it’s doing is it’s plugging the leaky funnel by increasing retention, you know, our podcasts, for example, get upwards of 95 to 98% retention rate throughout the entire episode. That’s a 20 to 30 minute episode. Now, I can’t think of any other medium right now that’s able to hold somebody’s attention for that long. And then, you know, there’s all the other reasons like the cost of production and all that sort of stuff. But it’s a it’s a fun time right now, and brands are wanting to get into the game, so we’re able to offer the full service dallben do so.

Mark Fidelman  03:20

Okay, so you bring up podcasting as one way to hold retention? How does that compare to like video?


Yeah, so the data that we’ve been able to pull says that when it comes to like a brand message in a video, typical YouTube video, let’s say it’s about a minute long, only gets about a 50% retention rate. And then, you know, when you think about the ROI on that, you know, the expense of producing video, you know, it’s not as great of a return as something like a podcast that’s able to retain, retain, you know, retain, listen, thanks for, you know, in our case, upwards of 95 98%. And quite honestly, you know, most are able to get upwards of 85 you know, 85 90% so this is not just a, you know, the case of ours, it’s the case across the industry wide. A lot of it has to do with the fact that podcasts cover topics that the listener is wanting to dig deep into, it’s also such a it’s such an intimate medium like it’s literally like whispering into your ear you know, you sit down you put on your earphones, you spend some time by yourself for walking the dog or washing the dishes or whatever you’re doing. And so there’s this there’s this element of just you and the and the voice and and you just get swept away and and that really helps to increase listen links as well. Okay,

Mark Fidelman  04:42

but you know, the other thing that you didn’t mention that I’ll mention because I do both video and podcast is the cost. The cost is a lot different than the production value. It’s got to be a lot higher except for sound. I mean, sounds really critical on podcast, apps and sound is critical on video as well, but there’s so many other things you have to deal with, like lighting and location. And oh, I mean, there’s so many different things. Yeah.

Roger Nairn 05:07

And yeah, and and you know not to get into the weeds too much. But being, as you know, if you want to change something in a video, if you want to edit something down the road, it’s not easy to go back in and recreate that, you know, that sort of scene and that environment and the lighting and all those sorts of things, it’s a lot easier to go in and tweak some audio, there’s some there’s some, you know, there’s some editing that still needs to be done. It’s not, you know, something that you you flick a switch on, but it’s such a more flexible medium to be able to tweak down the road.

Mark Fidelman  05:39

Yeah, agreed. So let’s move into how you turn your podcast into either lead generation or branding opportunity. I know it’s plugging in, I agree, it plugs up the holes in the funnel itself. But I’d also like to start from the top of the funnel and just say, Okay, how do people use podcasts for top of funnel type content to start people becoming aware of your brand your product, or that do that individually? even exists?

Roger Nairn 06:09

Yeah, totally. So we I mean, obviously, everything we do is is is sort of through the lens of a marketing medium. But at the end of the day, nobody’s going to listen to a 2030 minute ad. So off the top, let’s just cover that there’s very, very little mention of the brand in the podcast itself. What we do, you know, when we sit down with our clients is we start completely focused on who the listener is. So we do all the research to understand who this person is, what are they listening to one of the care about? What are the, you know, what are the things that they need to be either taught? or How can, how can they be helped or entertained? And then and then we and then we really dig deep into how the brand can serve that. So one of the questions we always ask our clients is, you know, what does the world need most that you’re most qualified to talk about. And then let’s focus on that. And so we, we sit down with our clients, and we say, you know, this is the audience that we want to either reach or move or have act, you know, make a purchase all those all the different, you know, things that we’re looking to accomplish, and we craft the podcast to make as big of an impact on them as possible. And the only way to really do that is to just deliver as much value as as possible. So, you know, and then the you know, and then the KPIs bit is obviously important, but it all flows out from what sort of a show we’re we’re producing and what we’re able to deliver for, you know, for that, that podcast to that audience. So if you’re a brand like Expedia, who’s like, who’s a client of ours, you know, they came to us and they said, you know, we have a bit of a brand challenge. And then that brand challenge is our, our, our customers don’t see us as enough of a helpful brand. And we want to be able to turn the dial up on our helpfulness metrics. Can you help us with that, and so we created a podcast with them, that is all about helping the audience hack the travel world, you know, there’s no better, you know, there’s no better brand who’s capable of helping people navigate the online travel space than Expedia. And so we created a show called out travel the system, it’s a podcast that is geared towards, you know, helping you make the most out of online travel, either purchases or research or just helping you understand how best to how best to travel. And so we create this show, it has very, very little mention of Expedia, you know, every once in a while, they’ll bring on an Expedia member that the Expedia team because quite honestly, some of their like, data scientists and some of their experts are world renowned, and they are literally the best in the world at what they do. So we created the show all about how to, you know, navigate the travel world, and and then, you know, push it out to their audience. So, you know, we have a full sort of six point marketing plan that we put together for all of our clients to do so which I can get into the details of, but the, the show, you know, the show is pushed out, and they have all sorts of different engagement, you know, gauge engagement tactics that they take to nurture that audience increase that listenership, and, you know, watch it grow.

Mark Fidelman  09:26

Well, before we jump into that, I would I would like to jump in the six point plan, but how do you decide on a focus for brand because like you said, you don’t want to talk about yourself in a podcast, it’s gonna get boring. There’s only so much you could say, and I think you can introduce aspects of your brand throughout all the different podcasts where it doesn’t seem too salesy. So my question is, okay, we have a brand, and I do a lot of videos with these brands. What is it that on the podcast side, should that brand do and how do you decide? I guess the question is, how do you decide on the What the topic should be for the brand?


Yeah, again, you know, it all goes back to the, to the audience, actually. So it’s really understanding what does the audience need? And then and then, you know, kind of turning around and, and and asking a couple questions. One is, you know, let’s look at the brand values, you know, what does the brand represent? And then what can the brand offer in the form of either skills or characteristics? I mean, you know, at the end of the day, it has to be entertaining as well. So, are there certain elements of the brand that have, you know, a humor aspect to it, or a dramatic aspect to it, and let’s lean into that. And really what it is at the end of the day is we you know, it’s we find that intersection between who your audience is what they need, and then what your brand represents and has to offer and, and in the middle of that intersection, is, at least a kernel are an opportunity for some concepts around the show. And then what we do is, we actually produce personas will produce a persona for who the you know, who are, you know, typical AUDIENCE MEMBER it is, and will use that persona to scrub up against all the concepts that we come up for potential show ideas, as well as when we get into the production, you know, when we make decisions, like, who the host is going to be, what the sound is, like? What sort of music are we going to choose? We’re again, rubbing up against the persona, and understanding and asking ourselves, would this person listened to the show? Is this helpful for this individual? are we offering enough value to them, because at the end of the day, you know, very little thing, you know, we’re gaining very little, from a brand perspective, unless it’s, you know, we’re getting very little, if we’re just having listeners listen to one episode and walk away, we want them to listen to an episode, we want them to subscribe, we want to create a relationship with them. So we can, you know, get them into that funnel, and nurture them along. So as much, you know, as much as we can understand about how to continue delivering value and continuing to deliver value is is is going to be beneficial for everything really.

Mark Fidelman  12:12

Yeah. Very well. So with that, and, you know, I always like to throw out an example, um, let’s say, you’ve got a pet CBD brand, is, you know, it’s not THC and CBD. So, you know, if you were going to start a podcast, and I am putting on the spot, so I don’t expect the perfect solution, because I know how long these things can take. But even a pet brand, I bet you could come up with some kind of a podcast, because you’d be appealing to maybe an audience that have pets that are at the end of their life, and they need some sort of CBD formula to help them through that aspect of it. But



Mark Fidelman  12:54

what would you What are your thoughts on that?


Yeah, so you know, you let’s say you’re that CBD brand, you’re all about integrity and product in and, and science and education. So you know, so those are some of the brand values, let’s say, and then really understanding who the you know, who your audience is. So obviously, their pet owners, they’re loving and caring of their pet, this is like a child to them. And they’re going through a difficult time because they’re, you know, their pet is nearing end of life. So, you know, kind of create a will create a persona around that, let’s say it’s, you know, his name is Kevin, and he lives in San Diego, and he’s got a, you know, an older German shepherd and, and, and has tried pretty much everything when it comes to pet products at all, and is also willing to spend almost anything for his pet because again, and this is like his, his child, well, let’s scrub up some of those brand values with you know, with this persona, and, and come up with, you know, some ideas, so maybe there’s a show called canine care all about all about, you know, alternative ways for for afterlife or, or, you know, palliative care for, you know, for your, for your animals as you get closer to end of life. And then and then create a show around that so that everything everything around that show could be about alternative ways of caring for your pet, we can have multiple different guests, multiple different voices, and this is again, where we get into the production side, we make those decisions, like, you know, what type of a show are we producing? Are we producing a sort of one on one interview like we’re doing right now, or we may be addressing it from like a panel standpoint, you know, maybe an idea is every show has two different experts on one from more of a traditional medicine side and one from a more alternative medicine side and and they’re not there to argue but they’re there to just explain their side of the scenario or the you know, their point of view and and then we have our hosts kind of moderating Between the two and let and leaving it to the, to the audience to decide on on what makes the most sense for them. Or maybe we’re looking at a more of a documentary style production where we’re, you know, we’re, you know, we’re coming into the, you know, someone’s house and spending time with their pets, and really kind of learning more about who the pet is, and, and what sort of relationship that they have together and kind of weaving that throughout the story. And again, this goes back to my original point about the engagement levels of podcast is, is, you know, incorporating tools like that we call it sort of audio texture, whereby you’re shifting the conversation into different areas, or different and you’re going down different sort of roads, and avenues. Those are all ways of keeping the listener engaged and actually keeping the brain fresh and listening longer. And again, this is a marketing tool. So the longer we can have people engaged, the better. So we’re making decisions like that, again, going back to our persona, you know, what is Kevin gonna be interested in listening to? You know, what are some of the other podcasts that Kevin listens to? And what sort of storytelling tactics do they take? Let’s incorporate that in the show. And so it’s really fun, you know, it’s, it gets really fun, because we get to completely blue sky, you know, what the opportunities are in the show? And, and try to make it as, you know, listable as possible?

Mark Fidelman  16:21

Well, I have to, I have to say, everyone listening, Roger, and I did not plan that. That was him coming up with that off the cuff. And I actually think it’s a pretty good idea for a podcast. Thank you.


Thank you. Yeah, it’s my, it’s my, it’s my advertising days, where I was, spot put on the spot by many clients are like, you know,

Mark Fidelman  16:40

idea now, right? happens all the time, subtly. And they expect you to have the right answer right then and there, which is Oh, yeah.


And they’re paying for it.

Mark Fidelman  16:48

Paid for exactly. So you mentioned a six point plan. And I’d like for you to quickly kind of go through each of those in and just to give people an idea of what you do, assuming that they want to do it themselves, or they want to work with you, or whatever, they have a better understanding of what it takes.


Yeah, absolutely. So I think the first thing to remember when it comes to audience growth and marketing of your podcast is you need to think almost like a publicist, or like your, you know, you know, your Netflix or your, you know, universal and you’re pushing out your newest, your newest production, you need to look at it from from multiple angles, versus just putting some Facebook ads, online, things like that. So we look at it from six, six buckets, the first bucket is what we kind of call marketing. And that’s where we’re looking for opportunities through different different channels to promote the show, let’s, let’s say for example, you know, we’re, you know, we’re talking about our CBD podcast for pets, you know, let’s reach out to BuzzFeed, and let’s pitch them on why our show should be included in a list of the Top 10 podcasts for pet lovers, things like that, you know, these are all opportunities that you can reach out to different, you know, different channels and media to to, you know, to pitch them on why they should, they should feature you and you know, in their, in their channels, the secondary is PR and answer earned media opportunities. And this is where we’re creating, we create a PR pitch kits for for our shows, and we’re creating a media list. We start very wide with our media, we look for, you know, kind of national opportunities, New York Times, Chicago Tribune. You know, the the California market, things like that, and then we’re reaching out and pitching why, you know, our show should be should be featured. And then we’re getting a little bit more niche so so if we’re if we’re talking pets, then we’re we’re reaching out to the pet media Marcus and and we’re, you know, pitching on why our podcast should be featured in in those opportunities. And then we’re getting even even more discussion we’re getting into the more kind of media media they you know, the the media who’s covering things like podcasting and and the podcast industry, and pitching them on why there’s great opportunity to you know, tower, either our host on for, for an interview or feature our show, you know, in total, and then we’re even getting into specific podcast media, which you can pitch as well. The third area is what we call spotlighting. Now, there’s a big misconception in podcasting that when you’re featured at the top of Apple podcasts, for example, in the new and notable section, which is sort of the holy grail, as you know, of, of getting you know, the word out on your podcast, a lot of people think that that’s a, you’re beating some sort of algorithm. The reality is that those are all editorial decisions. Those are there are real people in you know, in in the apple offices who work for Apple podcasts, who are making those decisions, which means that you can pitch them, you can reach out to them. You can tell them why you think you deserve to be featured, whether it’s a new show that you’re really excited about or maybe there’s a option. opportunity, and there’s some seasonality behind it. You know, if you have a show that has a great episode that is, you know, Christmas themed or something, why don’t you pitch them on why your episode should be included in a list of great Christmas episodes, things like that. The fourth area is what we call cross promotion. And again, going back to our, you know, our persona of Kevin Raskin ourselves, what are the other shows that Kevin’s listening to, because to us, other podcasts are sort of the low hanging fruit of opportunities, because those are other podcast listeners, or, you know, those are the other podcasts that you know, our fan base is listening to. So we’re creating a big long list, and we’re just doing the legwork to reach out to all these podcasts and discuss opportunities with them. And as you know, the podcast world right now is a bit of the Wild West, and there is a ton of opportunity, and really no rules when it comes to, you know, these sorts of deals and, and and working together. So we’re, we’re we’re pitching on why our host should come on their show in exchange for maybe their hosts coming on our show. Or in some cases, we’re even swapping content, we’re saying, Hey, we’re gonna give you one of our episodes to include in your feed as a bonus episode to your listeners. And in exchange, we’ll do the same thing on our on our feed, we’re gonna include one of your episodes as a bonus episode in our feed. And so you can you know, you can play all those all those sorts of games together. And it’s, it’s, it’s really fun, and the community is quite open to those sorts of things. And then the fifth area is paid. So paid opportunities. Now, we’re not a big, you know, we’re not a big fan of paid social for promoting podcasts. It’s not to say that, that we don’t do it, we just find it doesn’t work as well as buying ads on either other podcasts, or on podcast directories. And again, it goes back to what I talked about with cross promotion is there, that’s where the, that’s where the listeners are already. So it was the

Mark Fidelman  21:51

podcast directory. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, but where are the podcast directories before you move on?


Yeah, so so podcast directory is great example is like castbox is a is a great podcast directory, you know, there’s opportunities to buy either push notification, or display ads, um, you know, Stitcher does stitcher does advertising as well, so much like, you know, other, you know, much like other directories for for other products, you know, podcast, apps themselves, have have advertising included in them. overcast is another example. There’s about 15 of them in total, that you can, that you can reach out to and have discussions about, you know, demographics, and what the best way is to, you know, to get your, your podcast in front of those audiences. And included in that opportunity is advertising within podcasts. So there’s sort of two ways of doing that. One is the sort of what I would call the baked in way of, of podcast advertising. And that’s where you’re literally handing a script over to the host of one of those shows, and they’re reading it and, and therefore, your ad is baked into the show, it’s, it’s not going anywhere. And then there’s the dynamic advertising opportunities, that’s where you’re dynamically inserting your ad into, into a donut either in the, you know, the beginning, the middle, or the end of the show. And the great thing about that is you’re able to target specifically, you’re able to produce and, and, and push out multiple versions of your ads. And, and they’re able to target specific to demographics, and geography and geography and stuff like that. And, you know, relatively inexpensive compared to others. And then the final kind of bucket that we use is, and we really need a better name for this, but we just kind of called them more buckets. And, and really, what what this is, is we ask our clients, what’s the sort of what’s the unfair advantage you have compared to, you know, either your competitors or other, you know, other verticals. And then let’s, let’s take advantage of those and promote the show. So if you’re a bank, you know, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re sending out monthly statements, either through email or through, you know, through the third letter mail, let’s promote the show with a little line, you know, included in that about checking out the new podcast on those statements. Or if you’re a nonprofit organization, you’ve got a massive list of volunteers that are just aching to be engaged with, you know, with the organization. So you know, promote the show to them. We always talk about starting with those closest to the brand first, and then promoting outwards from there. Because they’re going to be your evangelists. They’re going to, you know, they’re going to pass on the show to others. They’re going to listen to help, you know, help, subscribe, they’re going to listen there. They’re going to subscribe, they’re going to leave your reviews. They’re gonna be excited to to push the show for you. So you get that you know that you get that organic, that you get, get that organic push. So those are the those are the six buckets now Each of our clients asked us the same question every time, which is do we need to do all six? And the answer is no. There’s the you know, it really depends on on what you’re looking to accomplish. And what’s right for the brand and, and what’s going to make the most the most sense for the show.

Mark Fidelman  25:17

Yeah, I love all those things. I want to insert my own ad into those six, we just had an episode on a four minute podcast hack, which was similar to what you said about inserting pod, your podcast ad within another podcast and that episode you could see in in our list, I think it’s the one previous to this.


That’s a great episode. Yeah. Great.

Mark Fidelman  25:42

So you’ll, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll appreciate that if you’re listening in on this. Okay, so, love everything we’ve talked about, I have learned a lot. I’m curious as to what tools you use to kind of measure the efficacy of your clients podcast, what do you tell them to get?


Mm hmm. So we firstly need a you need an online host server of some sort to, to host your file and push it out to all the different podcast directories. Now, you know, there’s a whole number of them. Lipson is one buzzsprout is another simple cast, we happen to use a program called Omni Omni studio, fantastic program, companies based out of New Zealand, beautiful people to work with. And and essentially, it’s our home for hosting our file, as well as the title of the show all the meta data, including show notes, and then we’re able to connect to all the different pocket structures and push it out. And when you do that, it then allows you to pull in all the data. And that’s really one of the most exciting parts about podcasting is the amount of data you’re able to gather. So with all of our shows, and and this will be pretty much the same with with with most of the services that you’re you know, you’re you’re going to use, you’re able to pull in all the analytics. So things like downloads the reach number of subscribers, you’re going to be able to get into the age and sex and geography of your listeners, you’ll be able to tell what devices they’re using, whether they’re listening on mobile, or desktop, or on their smartwatch or on their smart speaker. You know, it’s amazing how granular you can you can get. And that’s on a show basis, and even on an episode episode basis. And then you also have your your consumption data. And that’s where you’re able to tell how long listeners are listening to, you know, listening to an episode four, where are they dropping off? Where are they skipping? You know, when were they getting bored? Really? Where are they, you know, becoming uninterested. And if you have a show that has sort of a consistent format, and you’re seeing a consistent drop off at a certain point, you need to ask yourself, what’s going on during that part of the episode? And is there improvements that we can be making? And that’s that’s, that’s really what this data is for is it’s for improving your show, it’s for, you know, taking in and understanding what could we be doing differently better, again, focus on the listener focused on value, how can we make a better show so that it says listenable as and shareable as possible? And so all this data is, is is is available to you. Now, I will say that, when it comes to podcasting, the access to data is probably the one bit that is still very much a work in progress. I’ll give you a perfect example is every directory or and interestingly, when you listen to a podcast on your phone, like like I use a I use an app called overcast for example. overcast is actually just pulling in the data from Apple, Apple podcasts. So actually, when you connect your your show to these directories, as long as you can connect to Apple, podcasts, Spotify, Google, Amazon, Stitcher, and let’s say radio publica, you’re pretty much getting into about 90% of all the of all the apps and opportunities out there, which is great. The challenge with that though, is Apple doesn’t release the same amount of data as stitcher does. A perfect example of that is stitcher will tell you what age and sex. The listeners were that listened to your podcast, but Apple won’t. Apple will tell you differently, you know, a little bit of different data that maybe Spotify won’t. And so you have to kind of make some educated guesses when it comes to, you know, some of this information and it hasn’t gotten to a point yet where it’s it’s it’s all uniform and cookie cutter, there are, you know, there has been the introduction of of a B into, you know, into measurement and they’re starting to certify. And and so a lot of a lot of these directories and services aren’t falling in line with how I be, you know, certifies and assesses whether something is a download or listening and things like that, but it’s still work in progress. That being said, it’s it’s, it’s fantastic information and you’re able to use it and gain a lot of value from it. But it’s, it’s not quite quite there yet.

Mark Fidelman  30:34

Yeah, I mean, it’s come a long way from when I first started podcasting, I wasn’t familiar with some of the tools you brought up. So I’m going to check them out. Because I think it is critical to find out, especially in a format like mine, where it is very similar each and every time to find out where the drop off was, or is whether it’s, you know, everyone hates me as a host. Right? No format, where they’re like, okay, I don’t care about your last two questions that you ask guests. I personally, I think they do. But you know, enjoy Jade, I really don’t know.


Yeah, or maybe you know, if you have, if you have advertising in the middle of your show, but you notice that people are skipping through it. You know, you need to ask yourself are, you know, are my listeners either pissed off that I have ads now? Or are they not the type not the type of ads that are, you know, that are resonating with them. Because the data actually shows there’s great great study that BBC came out with called BBC audio activated that said that podcast listeners 95% of podcast listeners, don’t mind hearing advertising, and actually have more affinity for brands that advertise on podcast, which is unheard of. In the advertising world. A lot of it comes down to the, you know, the the types of types of products but also the, the way that the ads are produced, a lot of them come from the the the show themselves, they’re sort of baked into the characteristics of the show, and are less sort of broadcast II and, and and more tailored to to the audience. And so

Mark Fidelman  32:07

yeah, I’m curious as to, before we go go to our final two questions. I’m curious as to if you’ve done the research on whether a host advertisement within that their podcast is more effective than just random, not randomly, but putting a branded commercial within a podcast.


Yeah, so the the data shows, and I don’t have the exact number, but the data shows that a host read ad is more effective. Because it’s, it feels like it’s more natural throughout the show itself. And, and, and therefore, it’s actually more expensive than then the sort of dynamically inserted dynamically inserted adds,

Mark Fidelman  32:45

okay, well, that that helps me because I’ve been thinking about Okay, now I’m ready to expand this, how do I expand it? And that was one of the ways I was thinking about doing it, and you brought some others earlier on today. So this has been very valuable. With that, let’s segue to our final two questions. One, I think I know what you’re gonna say. But what is the hottest digital marketing technology that you recommend people to use today? Well, I’ve


been definitely podcasting. But drilling down a little bit further, I think there’s, there’s a lot of really great engagement opportunities in podcasts when it comes to streaming. Now, you know, traditionally podcasts were downloaded, you know, downloaded directly to your phone. But now that we’re seeing more streaming streaming services, like Spotify, for example, there’s a lot more opportunities for brands to communicate in a number of different ways to listeners throughout the show, and I’ll give you a perfect example. Spotify is actually testing this out but I see no reason why they won’t just roll it out. They’re going to do a polling service so that when you’re listening to an episode let’s say we’re talking right now and and there’s an opportunity in the episode to say hey guys, why don’t you leave us your answer to this poll and the poll is you know, what do you think is going to be the future of you know future podcasting? And and and just you know, look down at your phone or maybe your phone will vibrate in a little poll will pop up and listener right then and there can respond with their answer you know, maybe it’s a multiple choice or maybe it’s an open answer but it gives an opportunity for them to feel like they’re either adding to the show and then the and then the host can take that data and and report on it in the next episode or are using in a number of different ways. I think all these things are amazing and they only helped enhance the you know, the experience I can imagine all sorts of different you know, storytelling opportunities, whether it’s kind of like a Choose Your Own Adventure style way of podcasting where, you know, you’re you’re given a choice to go down, you know, sort of one dress In the story or another direction, and you’re able to choose it on your phone, and, and kind of just skip to the next know, the next section, depending on what your choices, all these sorts of things are really cool. Now a lot of the more traditional podcasting folks don’t like this because they feel like it’s slipping further and further away from, you know, sort of traditional podcasts. It’s kind of like, you know, people that don’t like video and podcasts, which, you know, there, there are those that are out there that feel like it’s, it’s always got to be just purely, you know, purely audio and stuff like that. But I’m a big believer that as long as it continues to deliver value, and there’s a reason behind it, and it’s, and it’s, it’s just going to enhance the experience, and it’s all great,

Mark Fidelman  35:39

great answer. I am one of those that don’t do podcasting and video at the same time. And it’s only because I’m a purist on the video side. It’s not because I have anything against everyone else doing it, I just look at, okay, I’ve shot those and the engagement, the amount of time people spend watching it very low compared to the other videos I put out there as well. I’m just like, okay, I could just record it and add some extra production value to it, and it would be rolling. Other things for me just hasn’t worked out. I’m sure there’s a way. Yeah,


I’m the same way. And I always ask myself, like, what’s the, you know, why do people want to listen to Why do people want to watch a zoom call session? Yes. And, and, and, and, again, I have no problem with, you know, with video and podcasting, but again, is there a way to enhance it, you know, or do it live, like through LinkedIn, and, and, and having different opportunities right then and there, you know, while you’re listening and respond to people, you know, asking questions and stuff. And so I always coach our clients who say, you know, should we should we be video on? You know, first I was asking why? And what can we do to make a difference? Whether it’s, you know, overlaying it with some really cool animation or, you know, cartoons or whatever, whatever makes sense for the brand, but to just show him a zoom call is, I don’t know. Not a fan.

Mark Fidelman  37:03

Yeah, I mean, you can do frames around we, if we do a podcast and they want video, we start with video, and then we turn it into a podcast and then the video we have B roll, we put a little frame around the two people talking or if it’s three, we put a frame around all three. So we have total start with video then go podcast, not the other way around. But yeah, you don’t have a monopoly on what’s right, what’s wrong. Exactly for your brand. Okay, let’s go to question number two. I was surprised that your answer. However, I really respect the man. So who is the most influential person in marketing today and why?


I’m a big fan of Scott Galloway. Now, for those that don’t know, Scott Galloway is a Professor of Marketing at the New York University’s Stern School of Business. He’s also an author, speaker, he has a couple podcasts. One of them is called pivot that he does with Kara Swisher. The other one is called the prof. g show. He’s also got a show on vice, and he’s got online courses, and he seems to be interviewed on all the major networks. I know, CNN is a big, big fan of his, you know, the reason that I think he’s so influential these days is he keeps focusing on the importance of brand strategy. And he believes that you can drive value with brand strategy, and, and, and communicate value through your, through your brand. And maybe, maybe it’s just, you know, maybe it’s just the timing of when he became popular, but I think, you know, with, with, with everything that’s gone on this year with COVID obviously, all all brands are having to reassess, you know, who they are and what they you know, what they represent as a brand and, and how they engage with their audiences and and, and you know, what sort of value they put into the world. It’s so easy for brands to fall immediately to all sorts of tactics, you know, programmatic buying, and, and all these sorts of things that none of it’s wrong, but I I feel like so many of them are forgetting the basics of just good brand strategy. And so he has this knack of going back to the simple and, and and talking about, you know, what that brand represents and what sort of value it’s delivering in the world. And, and you know, what brands are and what brands represent and how brands sort of navigate throughout the world, whether it’s, you know, business world or politics or education. And to me, it’s just been a really refreshing sort of reminder of how everything has to come out of good strategy. Because if it doesn’t, then you’re just sort of throwing darts in the dark and really kind of forgetting what’s important here. audience and, and and and delivering all that value to them.

Mark Fidelman  40:04

Yeah, there’s two other things you Everyone should know about Scott Galloway one, he wrote a great book, one of my favorite books called the the four horsemen, I believe was the title of it. And also, he’s got an amazing video series on YouTube that he shut down. I have no idea.


I can tell you, I can tell you. Why don’t we Why? Because he got a show on vice that I think they they took all the video down because they wanted people to, he was essentially recreating the videos on vice. Yeah,

Mark Fidelman  40:36

but I mean, his episodes were, and he’s not, you know, he’s got no inflection in his voice. But he’s got this unique sense of humor that shines through, comes across as his erudite professor. And he’s talking about complex subjects. And he makes them simple. And he makes them funny. And then all the B roll and the cartoons and all the animation really add to each of these videos. And they’re shot in black and white. I’m like, What the heck yeah.


And he’s got a lot of, he’s got a lot of heart.

Mark Fidelman  41:05

He does. He’s got a lot of heart. And it works. You know, this bald, geeky looking guy, he comes. You know, he knows he knows his stuff. Yeah. I was just surprised to see Scott Galloway as your choice. But I understand that now. With branding, I think especially in today’s day and age, you got to have a strong brand. And once you do have a strong brand, and you have a community behind you, you can do almost anything in that space. So yeah, I’m in podcast, obviously, as we’re talking about today, podcast is one way more way to add to that brand. So Roger, I want to wrap things up, had a fantastic discussion. I think everyone’s learned a lot. I know, I learned a lot. I would love to have you back maybe in six months to talk about something very specific to podcasting, which, you know, we could talk about offline. But yeah, I mean, any closing thoughts before we wrap up?


No, no, I truly appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation though. The one thing I will mention to everyone listening, we run a webinar, which you’re all invited to, it’s a biweekly webinar. If you go to gr audio.com, forward slash webinar, you can sign up we we, we conduct this webinar for the marketing community, and really any communication professionals. It’s called 10 reasons why your brand needs a podcast now. And we’d really dive deep into all the reasons behind why brands should be getting into podcasting. But then we also get into how to get started, you know, really an expansion of the conversation today. You know, do’s and don’ts, opportunities and and really get into the, you know, the nitty gritty of how the sausage gets made.

Mark Fidelman  42:54

Wonderful, and we will add those to the show notes. So it’s jar audio.com forward slash webinar. Yes, I see that. All right, Roger. Thanks again. And I look forward to talking to you on another subject in about six months.


Thanks, Mark.

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